senators who privately would love to get rid of him, but their voters are not there yet. they're holding the line even if they felt they could get away tw it politically, they'd love nothing more than to flip on trump. >> jonathan swan live for us in washington, d.c. we're going to be reading "axios" a.m. in a little bit. you can sign up for that must read news letter at signup@"axios".com. >> that's it for us. "morning joe" starts now. the dairy charred nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from congress over the impeachment process away from congress and he became the judge and jury. >> 20 years ago you said that not complying with a subpoena -- >> nothing's changed. >> that is the correct answer. that's the correct answer. >> lindsey graham might want to tell mike pence and rudy giuliani that. >> you know what's so interesting is that rudy, if you

go back and see what rudy said about impeachment, what rudy said about special counsels, it was directly opposite of what he's saying now. so glad to see lindsey, well, lindsey back, when we were serving together, i forget he had all that hair. he could have been in the loving spoonful. >> good morning, everyone. welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 16th. >> wait a second. >> yes. >> do you hear that in the background? >> i'm so tired. >> that is the sound, willie geist. do you hear that? that is the sound of washington going to the world series for the first time since 1933. >> still have my wristband on. >> that was for a club afterwards. mika went clubbing. she comes in, i'm in bed at 4:00. are you going to bed? i'll just work through it. anyway, yeah, we went there. first time washington baseball

team's been in the world series since '33, and the last time they won 1924. so there are a few people excited here. >> it was kind of fun. >> not just astounding historically, but astounding this season. they weren't very good at the beginning of the year. they were 19 and 31, 12 games under 500 at one point in may, and they have just been amazing in this post season. they won, came back, mike, to win the wild card game against milwaukee. they came back in that last game to beat the dodgers, the best team in the national league. and man, they come in with a sweep. they get a week off to play either the astros or the yankees and they're going to be tough to beat. way they want redible pitching it a week from now. >> there's no doubt about it. since the all star break, the washington nationals were one of the three or four best teams in baseball. they've been playing well since then, since middle of july. 1933 is a long time in between a world series.

roosevelt and i were both at that 1933 world series. it's going to be a great world series no matter who the american league representative is. >> mike, it looks like they do look like a team of destiny. it's remarkable, again, for those who don't follow baseball. bryce harper left. they were supposed to collapse. harper got tons of money, way too much money in philadelphia, and this team, they just assembled. you got to respect the management and the manager, they assembled a great team that took apart a really good st. louis cardinals team. >> there's been a lot of talk in washington and throughout baseball about harper's absence on this team and if it meant anything. i don't think it meant a large deal. >> obviously not. >> but one of the best players in major league baseball is right there, washington nationals 3rd baseman anthony rendon, he is a free agent this

coming winter, and he ought to get more money than bryce harper because he's a more valuable player. >> i thought it was fun. no idea what you guys are talking about, but it was really, really, really like festive, and we had cake, and it was delicious. >> so mika was -- >> it was so good. >> about halfway through the game, and i'm trying to pretend that she's -- >> everyone was so excited. >> been a nationals fan her whole life. >> like most washington fans. >> exactly. like most washington fans. and mika turns to somebody and says this is so much fun. are they going to ever play another game? we had to explain that after this game they get to go to the world series. >> i wanted to go back. those folks were really nice. anyway. >> what's that willie? >> nothing, it's just a funny observation. hey, this is fun. they should do more of this. >> do it every year. >> we didn't bother telling her they do it 162 times a year.

>> it was awesome. it was fun. thanks for having us. >> october 16th along with woil lee, joe and me, we're here on capitol hill, and we have sam stein and up in new york along with willie you saw mike barnicle is here along with senior adviser at moveon.org and msnbc contributor karine jean-pier jean-pierre. we're going to get to the latest on the impeachment inquiry. mike pence and rudy giuliani are among those refusing to hand over documents sought by congress, and the office of management and budget missed yesterday's deadline to turn over documents related to the d delay of military aid to ukraine. first, senator elizabeth warren's surge in the polls earned her the focus of the other candidates on the debate stage last night. attacked 16 times by our count, mostly by fellow senator amy klobuchar. it was mayor pete buttigieg who got it started when elizabeth

warren refused to give a straight answer when asked if her medicare for all proposal would raise taxes on the middle cla class. >> a yes or no question that didn't get a yes or no answer. this is why people here in the midwest are so frustrated with washington in general and capitol hill in particular. your signature, senator, is to have a plan for everything except this. >> at least bernie's being honest here a going to pay for this, and that taxes are are going to go up. i'm sorry, elizabeth, but you have not said that, and i'm tired of hearing whenever i say these things, oh, it's republican talking points. you are making republican talking points right now in this room by coming out for a plan that's going to do that. i appreciate elizabeth's work, but again, the difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something that you can actually get done. >> saying this is a rules problem is ignoring the reality americans see around us every day. >> i want to give a reality check here to elizabeth because no one on this stage wants to protect billionaires, not even the billionaire wants to protect

billionaire. we just have different approaches. your idea is not the only idea. >> and sometimes i think that senator warren is more focused on being punitive or pitting some part of the country against the other. >> i'd like to ask senator warren if she would join me in calling for an end to this regime change war in syria finally. >> and so senator warren, i just want to say that i was surprised to hear that you did not agree with me that on this subject of what should be the rules around corporate responsibility for these big tech companies when i called on twitter to suspend donald trump's account. >> sop you kno, you know, willie of things. it was striking how much they went after elizabeth warren, but also, she is actually creating talking points that republicans will use effect ufively in the midwest, especially in places like florida if she doesn't answer the question, how are you

going to pay for a medicare for all plan that, again, bernie's admitted will cause taxes to be raised on middle class americans. she just can't answer that question. >> as mayor buttigieg said it is a yes, no, question, and the answer is yes. bernie sanders has offered the answer, yes, prices are going to go up, taxes are going to go up on the middle class. she's putting it all on the wealth tax and using billionaires as the boogeyman. the truth is it will raise costs if the middle class. there's been a lot of talk about who's the front runner in this race, is it joe biden, elizabeth warren, the field answered that for themselves last night. they focused almost all of their fire on elizabeth warren and not on joe biden. >> it was very interesting to see, yeah. all of them agreed on one thing, which is elizabeth warren is the front runner. they came for the queen if you will, and i think she did find, you know, she held her own. she stuck with message, agree

with her or not. i always go back to this, i always go back to is it going to change anything, you know? i don't think that second tier, two 2, 3% they're not going to break into that first tier. we are where we are. we have the three front runners and you have pete buttigieg pretty much out there. he had a strong performance last night. i thought amy klobuchar had her best performance or all of the debates, and also kamala harris had some strong moments there as well, but that's the thing. i don't know if we are where we are with these debates and if they are really going to move the needle for anyone right now. it seems like everything's kind of frozen in its place at the moment. >> still too many people on the stage. >> i agree. >> you think? >> way too many people, and you kn know, we see it every four years that iowa sort of waits until after christmas, then they start focusing, and you'll see people like john kerry in 2004 surge to

the front. barack obama surging, and in the debate, though, last night, the attacks against elizabeth warren, a few of them seemed to really land, and of course her not answering the question about raising taxes. i think more importantly the tone, the style of her approach. one called it punitive, and amy said, you know, your plan's not the only plan basically saying, you know what? we can disagree with you without being bad democrats. we can disagree with you without being bad americans. >> i think there is general frustration that warren has risen to this point, and she's done so by basically saying i have the boldest approach and anything that comes short of mine is not bold and i have the most educated approach and anything -- >> and if you disagree with me, you're feeding into republican talking points, which would be maddening to me if i were on the stage as a democrat. >> i do think there's genuine frustration among other

democrats who feel like they want to get to the same place, but they want to do it incrementally. do they engender more sympathy for her after going after her. i thought amy klobuchar did a good job. there was a moment when biden went after her over the creation of the consumer financial protection deal. in the end he said, you know, you kind of owe me for the votes i helped get for that bureau, and there was a little bit of a rift there i thought. >> you know, the thing that was great about elizabeth warren and sort of what i've noticed about her every step of the way before she even became a candidate is that her story and all the work she has done backs up her message, so when you ask her what's behind her message, what's behind her idea, what's behind her policy, she'll go into a story as to something she built, something she brought to the table. something she did that went against the tide, and always has a clear message to back it up. reasons for it. here's the exchange you were talking about, sam, let's take a look. >> following the financial crash of 2008, i had an idea for a

consumer agency that would keep giant banks from cheating people, and all of the washington insiders and strategic geniuses said don't even try, because you will never get it passed, and sure enough, the big banks fought us. the republicans fought us. some of the democrats fought us, but we got that agency passed into law. >> i agreed with the great job she did, and i went on the floor and got you votes. i got votes for that bill. i convinced people to vote for it, so let's get those things straight, too. >> senator warren, do you want to respond? >> i am deeply grateful to president obama who fought so hard to make sure that agency was passed into law, and i am deeply grateful to every single person who fought for it and who helped pass it into law, but

understand -- >> did a hell of a job in your job. >> thank you. but understand this, it was a dream big fight hard. >> not a light touch. you know, mike, i read a quote last week. it said that academic politics is so vicious because the stakes are so small. [ laughter ] >> it seems to me that the battles that we see in these debates remind me of the smallness of academic politics. the smallness, the difference, the minutia between did i help you get that passed, did you get that passed, you owe me this. i thank president obama, but i don't thank you. come on, man. i will say again i give cory booker such high praise for actually being one of the only people to go oh, you all are

attacking each other. okay, you guys have fun. donald trump, let me tell you why you're destroying the republic. while you're talking about constitution. these people are talking about how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin while our constitutional norms are being shredded and a president is asking china to interfere with american democracy. something that his intel chiefs have all said is the greatest threat to american democracy. corey gets it. i'm sorry, most of the people on the stage don't. >> during the course of the debate, we have a president of the united states who constantly by the hour of each and every day makes an effort to alter the constitution of the united states, alter the ethics of the united states government, and alters the way people view government and view him, actually. karine is absolutely right when she said a few moments ago that there's no way of knowing who moves the needle in this thing,

and to your point that you just raised about elizabeth warren and that clip that we showed, look, let's face facts. elizabeth warren is a star. she is a star on the debate stage. she has been a star during this campai campaign, but you have to wonder the emotional reaction of people watching that exchange in which if you noted, she never once looked at vice president biden after he said correctly that he helped garner votes for the consumer protection bureau on the floor of the senate, which he did. she never once looked at him, and then to use your phrase, joe, was there a smallness aspect to her that people will notice that will register with people when she not only not looks at him, but clearly says deliberately i would like to thank slight pause president obama, not both of them, not obama and biden, not both of them. i would like to thank, slight pause, president obama. >> who by the way, willie at the

time, it ain't nothing, but joe biden was the president of the senate. >> yeah. >> as vice president, he was the guy that went down there and made things happen. >> >> and a guy who had been there for 35 years knew everybody in the senate, could wrangle votes and he was the guy doing the dirty work, not just on that bill. mayor pete buttigieg had an excellent night. one time he shined was during the debate over guns where he took on former texas congressman beto o'rourke, and o'rourke's proposal to confiscate semiautomatic rifles. >> if someone does not turn in an ar-15 or an ak-47 one of these weapons of war or brings it out in public and brandishes it in an attempt to intimidate as we saw when we were at kent state recently, then that weapon will be taken from them. if they persist, there will be other consequences from law enforcement. but the expectation is that americans will follow the law.

i believe in this country. i believe in my fellow americans. i believe that they will do the right thing. >> congressman, you just made it clear that you don't know how this is actually going to take weapons off the streets. if you can develop the plan further, i think we can have a debate about it. but we can't wait. people are dying in the streets right now. >> listening to my fellow americans, to those moms who demand action. to those students who march for our lives who came up with this extraordinary bold peace plan, let's follow their inspiration and lead and not be limited by the polls and the consultants a and. >> the problem is the policy, and i don't need lessons from you on courage, political or personal. everyone on this stage is determined to get something done. everyone on this stage recognizes or at least i thought we did, that the problem is not other democrats who don't agree with your particular idea of how to handle this. the problem is the national rifle association and their

enablers in congress, and we should be united in taking the fight to them. >> so joe, mayor buttigieg signaled this week he was going to sort of play that role yesterday which was to yank the party a little bit back from the left and some of these ideas like confiscating weapons and taking away private insurance. we saw him take on elizabeth warren with that question. mayor buttigieg is a guy that had that early burst. he's got a ton of money. he's going to be around when iowa comes around. he's anging arouhanging around that second tier, and he punched through in many ways and many opportunities last night like he did with beto o'rourke. >> i wouldn't be surprised to see mayor pete win iowa, see elizabeth warren win new hampshire, and if joe biden is still around, joe biden winning south carolina, and after those three states it's -- we still have -- obviously it can go in a thousand different directions, but we've talked about it before, mayor pete is doing what

iowa winners in the past have done. he's getting in position for the late surge, and people in iowa really start focusing, you know, after christmas he's got the money like you said. he's got a great ground game. he's in good shape. i want to go back to what mayor pete said about beto's confiscation plans. it is a radical plan, i think the supreme court would consider it unconstitutional. nobody and i mean nobody other than beto wants doors kicked down. reverend al told me, he said, man, if there was a gun confiscation plan and people were kicking down doors, he said i wouldn't be able to make all my calls on civil rights because i would have a lot of black americans calling me up yelling saying i was being targeted. it is, though, i do not doubt beto's good intentions, it is a

stupendously bad idea, and you take that idea and his idea to tax churches if they actually preach the gospel and preach the bible inside churches about same-sex marriage. if they have the freedom to preach the way they want to preach inside their churches, whether it's churches, synagogues or mosques. i mean, do we really want to start taxing mosques. do we really want to start taxing synagogues. so and the democrats seem united on this, except beto. make no mistake, willie, confiscation of guns, the taxing of churches, the taking away of private health insurance from 165 americans is going to be repeated around the clock between now and next november by whomever is the republican nominee. >> yep, they'll say this is party of confiscating your guns because one person said it, this

is the party of taking away your private health insurance, this is the party of punishing you for practicing your faith in the way you see fit. beto o'rourke is down at 1, 2%. he is gobbling up a lot of time in these debates and a lot of the conversation on the republican side is being held up to serve an avatar for leftist ideas. >> beto o'rourke is a good object lesson in the way we cover these debates. we come on the air in the morning -- poor karine was here until 2:00 this morning. the papers are filled with grades for each and every deb debate. if you stop and think about the reaction to beto o'rourke when he first appeared on the national stage and his moment about football players, nfl players kneeling went viral, so many of us in this business were instantly saying, oh, if he ever ran for president, he would win

in a landslide. look at this gieruy, he's charismatic. he's articulate, it would be over if he ran. no. >> it's very interesting because i feel for beto, and i know his heart is in the right place. he had two mass shootings in his state, one in his own city el paso, and so he took that on in a very personal way having to, you know, deal with mourners, and so i think it's coming from a genuine place. there is something that mayor pete said in that moment which is everybody basically wants the same thing. this is where i want to bring back what joe said. there was a missed opportunity last night to really take it to donald trump. the first ten minutes it was about donald trump's, you know, corralt criminality, which i thought was really great, but this is the weakest donald trump has ever been. this is the most dangerous he's ever been. he is incredibly exposed, and i think that that was a moment, many moments where they could

have made that contrast, right? one thing that we know in 2016, donald trump made that argument against hillary clinton, which is she's going to take away all your guns. so he's going to go there, and so what they need to do is continue to take it to him. i think that was missed. >> you know, sam, following up on what karine said, if i were advising one of these candidate, i'd say hey, listen, here's the deal. if you get a minute to respond, i'm going to let you talk about what they said. your differences with democrats for ten seconds. you've got to spend the other 50 seconds talking about something that donald trump did this week that did violence to constitutional norms, that attacked our political norms, that made america weaker across the globe, that undercut and killed our allies, that lifted up the enemies that would like to destroy this republic, that's how you're going to spend your other 50 seconds, and if you don't, i'm walking out. seriously, i'm telling you that

person would win every debate. >> look back at the 2012 debat s among republican presidential candidate, barack obama featured a ton more. they pivoted to the person who was going to be the general election opponent. look at the 2016 republican debate, primary focus is hillary clinton and barack obama. they knew where the actual enemy, political enemy was. i think in this case what was interesting to me last night, it wasn't so much big liberal ideas versus se-- it was practicality over something that seemed illogically. that's where the democratic party is. beto wants to talk about things that are liberal fantasies in some respects and he wants to be apologetic for him. it worked for him, a viral sensation in texas, but i'm not sure the national democratic electorate is all for that vision yet. that's where pete buttigieg comes in. >> that's the interesting thing. they're not.

you look at the polls, that's not where they are. that's where twitter is. that's where social media is, but there is a wide disconnect, and again, you look at joe biden. he's really the one moderate out there. it seems like mayor pete is trying to fill that space now. >> klobuchar, can we just bring up amy real quick? she did so well last night. and i'm not -- >> moments of clarity. >> i'm not talking about ideology. i heard mike say, yeah, amy does so well in these debates. you just wonder, it's one of those questions you ask when's she going to breakthrough. >> you know, watching her and hearing her last night, she was in her own way the voice of what sam was just referring to, the moderate centrist democrat who is going to dominate this election, suburban women, moderates in every city, in

every part of the electorate, and she embodied that, she articulated it, and she was quick. she was insightful, even when she was going after elizabeth warren, she was very calm about it, and very pointed about it. >> yep. really good. still ahead on "morning joe," fiver of the democratic candidates from last night's debate, beto o'rourke, mayor pete buttigieg as well as senators cory booker, kamala harris, and amy klobuchar. plus, the son of a president and the niece of a senator are among those who are shocked, stunned and deeply saddened by nepotism in washington. >> look, it's rona romney. >> she would know. >> hey, willie, can you look at this? roe na romney really went after nepotism. can you imagine? i mean ronna romney is right, can you imagine, i mean, having to go up against somebody like r romney complaining about getting

your job because of your name. >> romney is right about the swamp and there's too much nepotism in the swamp. ms. romney had to drop the name romney at the request of her boss. >> okay. sad chapter in that story. >> we'll get the latest on the full the outrage surrounding hunter biden. >> didn't don jr. do the same thing? >> oh, come on. >> was he going after -- do you see the nepotism thing? >> it was him rand paul went after him. >> rand paul? >> come on guys. >> there's some irony here. >> i have an idea, let me do a segment on it next block. >> willie, they should really -- >> she really wants to go to commercial. >> they should pass it off to dumb country lawyers like me whose parents weren't in the sport. >> you got us. first let's go to bill karins with a check on the incoming storm. >> by the way, his father, ziggy karins one of the great

meteorologists in new york city. >> he was great, and then my grandfather blizzard bill was fantastic too. >> blizzard bill. i've got to say the troops coming home from the great war loved getting the news in the new york herald from blizzard. bob was it? >> bill. >> blizzard bill. >> a long line of bills. >> bill karins, storm, go. >> how'd you get your job here, bill? >> i have no idea. no idea. but let me get you this forecast. today is one of those high impact days. if you have air travel or road travel through the northeast, we have a bomb cyclone. it kind of sounds scary. if it was the winter time it would be a big nor'easter with snow. this is a big rain and wind event. it's two storms, one in the great lakes, one in the southeast combining and moving up through the east coast during the day today. about one to three inches of rain is likely. it's been so dry. ais i'm not too worried about flooding concerns. some leaves will fall.

the winds will pick up, speci especially coastal areas. the highest wuninds will be durg the day tomorrow. isolated power outages. the bottom line with this is going to be the timing. it's about a four to six-hour period of very heavy rain, and then the winds come in behind it. for washington, d.c., the heaviest rain will be starting at 10:00 a.m. it will go until about 4:00 this afternoon. the peak of it, i stopped here at 1:00 p.m. this afternoon. so that's when the worst impacts would be at the airlines, and for new york city it looks to be about 8:00 p.m. this evening. that's when the heaviest rain is right over new york city. that's also when the houston astros are supposed to be playing at yankee stadium. it's looking highly doubtful they'll play that game tonight. one to three inches of rain, 40 miles per hour wind gusts. they may have to wait until thursday for that. for the airport travel, a high impact day with delays and cancellations possible from d.c. to new york, boston you look okay because the rain for you will be later on this evening. once again, new york city the worst timing rain begins about

4:00 p.m., and the peak of the rainfall will be from 6:00 to 10:00. then it clears out later on tonight. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. ♪ a wealth of information. a wealth of perspective. ♪ a wealth of opportunities. that's the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management. to help you grow and protect your wealth. you're stronger than you know. so strong. you power through chronic migraine, 15 or more headache or migraine days a month. one tough mother. you're bad enough for botox®. botox® has been preventing headaches and migraines before they even start for almost 10 years, and is the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment.

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my son's statement speaks for itself. i did my job. i never discussed a single thing with my son about anything having to do with ukraine. no one has indicated i have. we've always kept everything separate, even when my son was the attorney general of the state of delaware we never discussed anything so there would be no potential conflict. my son made a judgment. i'm proud of the judgment he made. i'm proud of what he had to say, and let's focus on this. the fact of the matter is that this is about trump's corruption. that's what we should be focusing on. >> former vice president joe biden last night defended his son hunter's work on the board of a ukrainian gas company after hunter defended himself in an

interview that aired on abc yesterday morning. in that abc interview, hunter biden acknowledged the role his last name did play in getting him a position on that ukrainian gas company's board. >> if your last name wasn't biden, do you think you would have been asked to be on the board of baa barisma? >> i don't know. probably not. >> dnc chair, ronna mcdaniel. >> ronna romney mcdaniel. >> used that moment to knock the biden family over, quote, obvious nepotism. >> did romney really do that? mcdaniel? >> see hunter didn't change his last name, so when ronna did, it's less obvious. see what i mean? >> would it be okay if hunter changed his name since romney mcdaniel did? >> yeah. >> that's how it works. >> so anyhow, ronna romney

mcdaniel. let me get this straight, hunter biden got $50,000 a month from a ukrainian energy company despite having zero experience in energy. his justification that he was on the board of amtrak? more obvious nepotism. if that's not the swamp, i don't know what is. >> it's interesting, romney mcdaniel was criticized throughout the campaign when she was moving into this rnc chair and top people in the campaign dismissed her and said the only reason she got that job is her last name. >> because she's related to mitt romney. >> and trump wanted to stick it to romney. isn't that interesting. >> her tweet has caused the phrase to ms. romney to trend on twitter. a he made his feelings on nepotism very clear. >> all right, your daughter ivanka will be taking caroline's place on the apprentice. >> correct.

>> nepotism. >> that's true. >> why? >> i like nepotism, you know, if you can't take care of your kids, you know that better than i. i like nepotism. a lot of people say oh, nepotism. usually these are people without children, but i like nepotism. >> got it. >> wait, hold on. >> i got it now. >> no, i don't. >> i got it. >> hold on. he was -- alex, i think he was a little subtle there. i was having trouble reading in between the lines. can you play that clip again? i want to -- i can't figure out whether he likes nepotism or not. can we play that clip one more time? >> your daughter ivanka will be taking caroline's place on "the apprentice". >> i like nepotism, you know, if you can't take care of your kids. a lot of people say oh, nepotism. usually these are people without children, but i like nepotism. >> oh, my goodness.

>> i'm just a dumb country lawyer. i'm going to -- does anybody have a pen? i'm going to take notes this time. >> sam, share your pen. >> play that one more time for me. i want to see if he likes nepotism or not. go ahead. >> your daughter ivanka will be taking caroline's place on "the apprentice". >> correct. >> nepotism. >> that's true. >> why? i like nepotism, you know, if you can't take care of your kids, you know that better than i. i like nepotism. a lot of people say oh, nepot m nepotism. usually these are people without children but i like nepotism. >> really, i think i got it that tie. >> third time's the charm. >> i think he likes nepotism. >> i think that's clear. what i found interesting, i don't know if we can put that up. he was offering his hot takes that night on the foley scandal, angelina jolie firing caroline and why he wants you to be wrri. >> fantastic.

joining us now is msnbc correspondent vaughn hillyard. good to have you back on the show. >> good morning. >> you dug a lot of this up yesterday. it wasn't just donald trump saying how he loved nep terrorism. >> -- nepotism. >> there's another one from 2006. >> really? >> this was ivanka trump, and i just want to read you. this was back from a 2020 two-hour special that was done on privilege. and the quote in which she was talking about essentially her role in the family, she was quoted as saying, did nepotism play a part in the fact that i'm joining my father? yes. i cut out years of bureaucratic pencil pushing by joining the company, and i acknowledge that. >> good for her. she didn't have to do all that pencil pushing. who would want to do that? >> by the way, that's what you want. hunter biden yesterday was straightforwa straightforward. he said of course it was because of my last name, and that's what ivanka's doing right there. let's stop pretending otherwise. >> the issue is when you have literally yesterday, last night in san antonio at a trump

campaign event don jr. is up on stage and he is saying when talking about hunter biden, he quote, i want to pull this up here real fast here. this was just last night. >> this is all too interesting. these -- >> this is hunter biden, about the only job he could get would be a no show job at a corrupt ukrainian oil company because no one else would hire this clown. that was don jr. last night. and of course, i want to if i could bring up, it was back in may of 2017, you was in dallas, and at the time don jr. was speaking at a reagan dinner to a republican club out there in dallas. at the time i wrote an article. it was don jr.'s foray into politics for the first time since his father took over the presidency, and he said, you know, once you get an up at this, it's hard to let it go. in the article i wrote at the time was the fact that don jr. despite leading the trump organization, despite the president holding onto financial

responsibilities within the o, what i wrote at the time was that how stark it was that don jr. was getting back into politics. two years later that's not even the conversation we're having today. >> there we go. and of course mike, it is nepotism, and don jr. had no more qualifications to take the job that he had than anybody else did, than hunter biden did. it's just -- other people i think can criticize, but it sure sounds hypocritical from donald trump or family members who brft fr benefit from that nepotism. they're not doing it in ukraine. they're doing it in the white house and in trump tower. >> yeah, you know, the tweet from don jr. that vaughn just read, that struck me yesterday, too. i mean, you wanted to say, hey, don jr., please. got to the webster's dictionary. look up the word irony and try

and figure that out. vaughn, read that tweet for people one more time and just think about this. >> quote, about the only job he could get would be a no-show job at a corrupt ukrainian oil company because no one else would hire this clown. >> that is projection actually. >> yeah, that's it. >> oh, my lord. >> but, also, guys, think about -- >> coming up, from text messages to record players to clipping coupons, joe biden adds another curious reference to his repertoi repertoire. >> we don't want billionaires clipping coupons, do we now? we're going to hear more from the former vice president straight ahead. >> if you agree with me, go to joe 30330 and help me in this fight. play the radio make sure the tfg television. excuse me, make sure you have the record player on at night, make sure the kids hear words. >> why in god's name should

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we are going to be mounting a vigorous campaign all over this country. that is how i think i can reassure the american people, but let me take this moment, if i might, to thank so many people from all over this country, including many of my colleagues up here for their love, for their prayers, for their well wishes, and i just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, and i'm so happy to be back here with you this evening. >> welcome back to "morning joe." that was bernie sanders, of course, responding to a question -- >> it was a nice moment. >> that all the candidates over 70 responded to, a question about their health. willie, i thought that was a really good moment for bernie sanders. >> it was a good moment. it's extraordinary that he's back out there. he had a heart attack, however they want to explain it. he had a heart attack, and he's back out there. he is 78 years old. joe biden will be 77 next month, elizabeth warren is 70. the president of the united states in his 70s as well. the vitality of these people is

something we can all aspire to in our 70s. it's extraordinary. >> it's interesting, though, that we think of the challenges that joe biden or bernie sanders face because they're in their late 70s but then the question was asked of elizabeth warren, so are you going to be ready, and you think, well, wait, she's young. if you win, you will be the oldest president ever inaugurated, and at that point you realize just how old this democratic field is. the leaders at least. >> that was a jarring moment, i thought, wow, i guess that's right. she would be, karine. she has, again, she has that energy and she's out there at those rallies and the age doesn't seem to matter. >> yeah, she touted how many selfies she's taken suince she' been on the campaign, i think she said something like 70,000. people can correct me if i'm wrong. the energy is just amazeamazing.

bernie sanders came back after having a heart attack just a couple of weeks ago, 78 years old, and he looked great. he looked great, and people didn't think he was going to make it to the debate yesterday because of what had happened a couple of weeks ago. >> yeah, i'm really surprised that he was there and did so well. you say old by historical standards because elizabeth warren has far more energy than i do. >> i can't believe her. she's seriously. >> you look at the shots. >> like an acrobat on stage. >> she's doing 4,000 selfies with people, if i did that about ten minutes later, what would i be saying ten minutes into it? >> your back. >> my back. >> where's my chair. u got to call my children. got to go, bye. luke but she stayed there for four hours. >> she's incredible. >> she is extraordinary. i want to ask you about something happening today, ask you how significant it is for bernie sanders.

aoc coming out with an endorsement, i think congresswoman omar also is? >> yeah, these are big, big endorsements for a campaign that two weeks ago we were wondering where does he go from here? big health scare, obviously getting the stints helps from a physical standpoint, but you need to show political momentum, and having these endorsements is is obviously a sign of momentum. i think it's -- some viewers tend to bristle at the idea of talking about age and health when it comes to this stuff. i think it's vitally important to be transparent and open about it. joe biden said he would release his medical records. i have and a lot of other people want to see this information. it does get to your capacity to do the job. we look at mike barnicle, 124 years old, still going strong. you can do this stuff in old age. >> speaking of which, mike, i wanted to ask you, let's go back, we were talking washington baseball. lets go back to 24, game 7,

walter johnson and what many people -- >> little mike there, he's 33. >> many people considered that game 7 in the '24 series to be one of the greatest games in all time in world series history. take us back to '24. >> what was it like? >> you were three rows out from calv calvin coolidge. >> i was only 12 years old, so my memory of that is not as distinct as the '33 world series when i was sitting right behind franklin delano roosevelt. it was a great game, and fdr and i went out later, and we had a good time. i had a lot of energy then, more than i have now obviously but back to the central point that sam just raised. the medical records of these candidates are critical that we get them, that the public sees them. wi we get nothing from donald trump oe other than lies. we get nothing of his medical records, his tax records. >> you don't trust the note from

his doctor. >> his doctor is so credible, too. >> by the way, willie for the record, mike in the '33 series was in the one game that carl hubble won. they went out later that night, got drunk. >> so many names in there. >> smoking cigarettes, drinking. >> mike barnicle by sam stein as he gets ready to go to 7th grade home room. outrageous. >> thank you. >> coming up, we'll be joined by five of the candidates from last night's debate, beto o'rourke, mayor pete buttigieg as well as senators cory booker, kamala harris, and amy klobuchar.

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to get the latest in the impeachment push. as the administration steps up, it's stone walling on the probe, andrea mitchell right here on capitol hill will join us, and she's mad at us. not mad at us per se, she's just mad. former senator claire mccaskill is joining us, we won't be too hard on her about the cardinals. we are moments away from five of the candidates from last night, beto o'rourke kicked off by mayor pete, and cory booker, kamala harris, and amy klobuchar. i started a tiny investment firm in 1986

and grew it to $36 billion dollars. in 2010, i signed the giving pledge to fund good causes. then i left my business to combat climate change, fix our democracy, and hold president trump accountable. last year, we ran the largest youth voter mobilization in history - helping double turnout and win back the house. i'm tom steyer and i approve this message. let's make change happen! but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast...

...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands? pain happens. saturdays happen. aleve it. aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong. morning show for thousand. >> she co-hosts msnbc's "morning joe." >> who is mika brzezinski. >> that would be mika brzezin i brzezinski. >> i got a text about this. >> i love people who say we love

your show, greatest show ever mica, you're the best. >> hey, i'm mika. and they're go, oh, mica. >> my mom loves you. that was really cool. welcome back to "morning joe," it is wednesday, october 16th joining joe and me here on capitol hill is nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports," the great angela mitchell. >> the washington nats. >> i'm wearing my nats red. >> how fun, right, with willie geist in new york we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, senior adviser at moveon.org, karine jean-pierre and former senator, and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. >> don't mention it. >> i'm sorry claire. >> black for mourning, i am in mourning. >> claire, at least it was close. >> can we just say -- >> mika. >> mica.

>> mica, don't do that to mement how da . >> what a year for the cardinals. what an improvement over last year, i mean, i don't know that a lot of people thought the cardinals were going to end this way, but they got to the nlcs a big step forward for a great organization. >> well, you know, we're spoiled in st. louis. we get to play baseball in october almost every year, and it is, you know, obviously we -- i hate the way we lost this series because it is very uncharacteristic. i mean, the last time we played the nats in a series, i think we swept them, and so it is -- but i'm happy for the nats' fans, all 400 of them, and -- >> ouch. >> last night, claire, it was packed. i've never seen anything like it. it was a sea of red. >> i know, it's really interesting. they've got to figure out how to

have a little bit better fan base in washington and not sell so many tickets to lobbyists, and sell more tickets to -- >> oh, my gosh. >> zingars. >> we're going to have to show these highlights now. >> i'm so confused. >> graceless tip of the hat and spit in the face to your washington nationals by claire mccaskill. so willie, a great season. we tried to be gracious to claire, that didn't work, so let's talk about the nats. >> the nats were amazing. >> this is a team, willie, of course, in may were absolutely horrible to be honest with you. i didn't really pay attention to them again until i saw a tweet like three months later saying, hey, the nationals have the best record in all of baseball since may. i mean, they had an incredible run. >> yeah, they were buried in may, they were 12 games under

500. the story of that division was the atlanta braifves and the ru they were going to make to the post season. they won their wild card game, came from behind, they beat the dodgers who were the best team in the national league, and now here they are in the world series. when claire walked into the studio, she looked us in the eye and said if i hear the word sweep i walk. she did not appear to be kidding as she stared us down. >> listen, i love how the nats finished the season. i think they won eight in a row at the end, which was amazing. and i love it when a wild card team makes it. they've never been. this is great for them, and i'm happy for you andrea, have a good time. >> you know, though, andrea, it all sounds very condescending. she's like oh, we're here every october. you have only 400 fansment oh. oh, andrea, patting you on the head three times, i'm happy for

you. you know what she'd say if she were from the deep south? she would go, oh, bless your heart. >> you know, the resilience of this team, howie kendrick, the mvp, this guy had an achilles, he was out on the d.o. he comes back, he's 36 years old. he hits that grand slam, i mean, two clutch power hits, you know, in key games. this guy, all of them, you know, soto, he's 20 years old. look at these players, our manager gets a heart ailment in the middle of the run up to the series, and is missing from the dugout, and we're all worried, where'd he go? why is he not there, and it turns out he's got a problem, and then just watch the spirit here. this is the kind of spirit that we all love, and i'm sure that people in st. louis are sort of watching with a little bit of --

>> it's prietty incredible. >> by the way, willie, when she was talking about the heart ailment and the manager disappearing, that reminded me of what we go through every day where he leaves his jacket on the back of his chair, and says i'll be right back and disappears for a month. >> he texts you from laguardia. let me say something, claire, those lobbyist tailgates are amazing. the spread they put out. >> the people here on the set right now, there's an element to baseball that is unique in sports. it is the human element. they play individually out there on the field. it's not like football or basketball where the action is so quick and there's a crowd around a tackle. you're an individual out there in the field. in this series in terms of the human drama, you saw stephen strasburg emerge finally fully as who he is. he has been -- >> great pitcher. >> he has been bad mouthed within major league baseball and

amongst sporting circles for several years as being soft. he's a soft kid. he's not up for the big game, the big time. 2012 he sat rather than appearing this the playoffs, but he emerged this year alone out there on the mound by himself as someone tough as nails who threw, i think, 114, 115 pu pitches, threw a great game, and the individual stories are unique in covering sports. >> also with us chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" peter baker. a lot of politics to get to, finally this morning joining us now democratic candidate for president, former congressman beto o'rourke of texas. how are the astros doing, beto? >> oh, no. >> pretty good. doing pretty good. but our congratulations to the nationals after last night. >> you know, beto, we're a little concerned that you are now -- we understand today you are going to be talking about confiscating the bat from the

new york yankees, especially aaron judge without any -- kicking down the doors. so that of course leads us into the question, of course, that you talked to with mayor pete last night. tell us about your plan on the confiscation of guns, which obviously many p believe believ unconstitutional and very concerned that it plays right into the hands of republican candidates. >> to be clear i'm not talking about confiscating anybody's guns, but i do think that for those weapons of war, ar-15s, ak-47s, these were designed and sold to the militaries of the world to kill people on a battlefield, and there are more than 16 million of them in america. we've seen the devastating effect that they can have in dayton, ohio, or el paso, texas, or odessa not too far from where i live. those must be bought back or else they -- each of them are an

instrument, potentially of terror in this country, and it is literally terrorizing and terrifying people throughout america. more than 80% of hispanics in texas fear that they will be a victim of a mass shooting attack like the one that we saw in el paso, texas, but joe, that's just part of a larger plan to reduce gun violence. with universal background checks, red flag laws to stop someone who has a firearm that may harm themselves or someone else, and then ending the sale of these weapons of war to our fellow americans. i think combined doing all of that, we will significantly reduce gun violence in america and save thousands of lives every year. >> so congressman, so let me ask you, lets say i have an ar-15, i bought it legally five years ago, i'm a law-abiding citizen, you want to buy it back as president of the united states. i say no, you give me other incentiv incentives, i say no, i bought this legally.

i'm keeping this. i live on a ranch, i need it for protection, what would you do then? >> first of all, i wouldn't concede the point on following the law. i don't know you well, joe, but i know you well enough to expect you to follow the law, even if it's a law you disagree with. i think it's one of the things that distinguishes us as a country, we're a country of laws. >> okay, but let's just assume there's a rancher in texas that doesn't, that says i'm not going to do this because this is an unjust law and it's unconstitutional. what's the next step? i think that's what we need to concede because there will be people that don't turn the guns back in. what's the next step for the federal government there? >> yeah, i think just as in any law that is not followed or flagrantly abused, there have to be consequences or else there is no respect for the law. so you know, in that case i think there would be a visit by

law enforcement to recover that firearm and to make sure that it is purchased, bought back so that it cannot be potentially used against somebody else. but my faith is in this country and in my fellow americans following the law and listening to people who own ak-47s and ar-15s who ak nocknowledge, who concede they don't need it for self-protection. they don't need it to hunt. its real true purpose and use is on a battlefield. i think that's important to acknowledge because when you talk to the people of dayton who saw nine gunned down in under 40 seconds or in el paso 22 killed in under three minutes, it's hard to answer their question as to why this continues to happen or why we would continue to allow more than 16 million of these weapons in our country, and joe, we also have an example in australia where those weapons of war were successfully bought

back without going to a door to door confiscation and where you've seen a dramatic reduction in gun violence. >> congressman, it's willie geist. good to see you this morning, i think everyone watching this show and almost every american agrees with you that 40,000 gun deaths a year in this country is completely unacceptable. so i guess the question from me to you is if you believe we should take back those semiautomatic rifles from people who have them or outlaw them, what about handguns? as you know well, 70% of gun deaths in this country come from hand guns, so if the idea is to get these guns out of the hands of people who are committing crimes and murders, why not go door to door in places like chicago and take hand guns as well? >> first of all, there's a significant difference between a handgun and an ar-15. if you talk to or listen to trauma surgeons as i have and they describe the wounds from those weapons of war, they expel

all their kinetic energy inside of you. they just destroy your organs, cause you to bleed to death, very different from what a handgun will do. and there's a legitimate use for a handgun, to protect yourself in your home. the answer to that challenge is making sure that we have true universal background checks, close all of the loopholes, and in the chicago example, and i've talked to people in chicago about this, you cannot ive enfo background checks. if you don't have them in bordering states people are going to buy guns in those places and bring them to chicago. we need a national system of universal background checks. it must be complemented with red flag laws so if someone is displaying a tendency towards harming themselves, in a country that loses 22,000 people to gun suicides or harming somebody else, then we take that weapon from them through due process before it is too late. >> and i think we agree the idea

is to stop gun violence, right? so i guess my question again is if 70% of the gun violence is coming from a particular kind of kbu gun, a handgun, why not go all the way and take those as well? >> because i don't think that's the right thing to do. i don't think that's constitutional, and i believe that americans -- >> why is it constitutional to take a semiautomatic rifle then? that's also protected under the second amendment. >> not necessarily. you know, even antonin scalia, a conservative jurist on the supreme court said there are some common sense limits to the second amendment, and at several points in american history we have acknowledged that with machine guns in the past, with an assault weapons ban in the mid-1990s that was allowed to expire within a decade, and these weapons that i'm talking about, an ar-15, an ak-47 are so materially different than a shotgun or a hunting rifle or a handgun that they should be

treated differently. they are weapons of war that should only be on a battlefield. i mean 22 people killed in under three minutes in el paso, texas, when the second amendment was ratified and adopted it took you three minutes to reload your musket. i don't know that the founding fathers could have envisioned the kind of carnage that could be produced with one of these weapons. and no civilian should own them. and i hope you all acknowledge this, every candidate on that stage is for an assault weapons ban, so if the logic is that those weapons are too dangerous to sell and then you acknowledge that there are 16 million of them out there, you have to do something about the number of weapons that are out there. my plan is the clearest, it is the boldest, and to your point it is politically difficult. it may not poll well. it may not be politically convenient, but it's important if we're going to save the lives of our fellow americans. >> andrea mitchell. >> congressman, let me ask you about the age issue, which came up last night, and there was a clear generational divide

between the three top front runners on the democratic side and everyone else including you. where do you stand when joe biden says that his age is wisdom. it's experience, and the clear hunger of a lot of democrats and a will the lot of other voters someone younger for change? >> i really want this to be a competition of ideas and vision and track record and the path that each of us describes in order to achieve the vision we have for america. so for me, age is irrelevant, certainly for any of the candidates on the stage last night. i don't think that should be a defining or deciding factor in this race, but you know, some of those questions that need to be resolved. all of us want to see our fellow americans as healthy as possible. each of us has a plan to get there. i think that's where we should be focused on the differences and the advantages of different proposals. in my case, universal guaranteed

high quality health care for every single american without a middle class tax hike. in fact, if your family earns $250,000 or less, you will not see a tax increase in my administration. i can answer that question very care clearly. senator warren had a hard time giving our fellow americans that assurance. could not answer that question point-blank. that's where i'd like to see the focus is on the differences on policy, on vision, on path, less on age of those things that i think are immaterial to the future of this country. >> well put. beto o'rourke, it's always good to see you. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> and go astros, i have no problem saying that. >> thank you. >> let's bring in peter baker. i want to get your take first on what happened last night at the debat debates, and then we'll move on to what's happening at the white house. what was your big take away from the debate?

>> okay. joe, i'm going to be honest with you. i was born and grew up in washington. we had 33 years without baseball. there were two contests that washington cared about last night, i was focused on the other one. >> he went to the game. >> sorry. >> thank you so much for not stumbling through that answer. by the way, that is the correct answer. we're going to give you rice a roe knee, the san francisco treat. so peter, let's talk about then the chaos at the white house. unfortunately for you, you have been consumed in that. what's your take on the latest developments surrounding rudy giuliani, the testimony on capitol hill, and where all of this is going? >> yeah, it was the right answer. you've got the story of two impeachment inquiries yesterday. you saw another state department official going to testify. he's the latest current and former administration official

to participate in the inquiry despite the white house saying it would refuse to allow or at least encourage its own people from cooperating, and then you saw, of course, rudy giuliani refusing to turn over documents, vice president pence, the budget office also refusing to turn over documents saying that this impeachment inquiry is illegitimate. you've got this two-track system going on. you've got the defiance of the white house and the people who actually work for the administration or used to work for the administration saying i'm still going to cooperate, guys. i'm going to be subpoenaed. the testimony is really troublesome for the white house. fiona hill in her testimony this week said john bolton, the former national security adviser objected to what was going on. he was on the opposite sides of mick mulvaney, the acting chief of staff who was cooperating with rudy giuliani in all of this. you saw with george kent the state department official going in there, there is great consternation over what was happening, the ambassador in ukraine, why she was being recalled at the same time that

giuliani was running this shadow foreign policy in effect on behalf of the president. you're seeing piece by piece, you know, layer by layer being pulled back. we're learning more about this whole episode. >> peter, if i could ask a question, tell me about this internal investigation in the white house. is this looking for a scapegoat? it doesn't ring true to me that this particular white house is serious about exposing all of the nonsense that went on. is this trying to find somebody to lay the blame on? is that what this is? >> that's certainly a suspicion of course. they're looking at this is a white house that has had leaks and any president would be concerned about some of them. the leak of these transcripts early on in the administration with the president's calls with the leaders of the mexico and australia, from then on they realized all around them were people who could put out information that they didn't want out there. that's created a real atmosphere of distrust and suspicion within the white house, a sense that the president can't trust the

people around him. the people around him feel like they're not, you know, looped in on important things, that they're deliberately stiff armed on matters that they should have, you know, visibility on. and so it's a very toxic environment at times within the white house. the new national security adviser robert o'brien is saying he's going to cut the staff of the national security council rather dramatically. he said that's a matter of good efficiency. they grew too much. a lot of other people would agree with that. it also strikes some people as a way of getting rid of the career officials who have been problematic in the eyes of the president who talks about his war with a deep state. >> so george p. kent, a senior state department official in charge of ukraine policy faced questioning yesterday as part of the impeachment inquiry. democratic congressman jerry ko connolly of virginia who was present for yesterday's closed door deposition tells nbc news that kent testified that acting white house chief of staff mick

mulvaney oversaw a may 23rd meeting where he tapped three political appointees, energy secretary rick perry, european ambassador gordon sondland, and special envoy kurt volker to oversee ukraine policy for the united states. >> that's amazing. >> according to konlly, kent told congressional investigators that the trio called themselves the three amigos and elbowed all other state department officials out of the way. kent also testified that after the may meeting he was told to, quote, lay low by a superior when he raised concerns about trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani who was working to pressure the ukrainian government to investigate hunter biden. >> andrea, first of all, stunning that you would have these three random people. >> three randos.

>> go around the entire state department. >> yeah. >> the entire organization, but then on top of that they're doing it and, again, we have the testimony. they're doing it specifically to carry out the president's bidding to have a foreign power investigate a domestic political rival. it's all there. it's why bolton called it giuliani's drug deal that he wasn't going to be part of. we still don't know the time line. when did donald trump decide that john bolton didn't belong in his white house? was it after it got back to him that bolton had called it a drug deal and sent people to lawyers? >> you know, that is one of the big questions, and i think we're going to hear from bolton directly as this all evolves, but the fact is the reason why he went around the state department is precisely because you now see today mike mckinley, three-time ambassador very close to pompeo was the closest

adviser, always traveling with mike pompeo, and now he's testifying. he quit on friday so that he would not be under any of these constraints. you've seen yovanovitch, you know, the ambassador, these state department officials, kent just yesterday, they would not have tolerated any of this. the fact that george sondland was brought in to this whole mix when he's not the ambassador to ukraine. he's a political contributor, this has really been a moment of crisis for the state department, and as william burns, the most senior and the most highly respected ambassador and former deputy secretary of state said in a piece this week, not since the mccarthy era have we seen the state department so politicized, so demoralized, we're at a crisis point here and it really has to be laid at the feet of this president and the secretary of state. >> the secretary of state who allows it to continue happening. >> yeah, mike. >> peter baker, is it possible off of andrea's answer, is it

possible to measure the level of anxiety, perhaps fear, within the small circle of people around the president about the fact that the state department, which has been thoroughly hollowed out over the past two years and the pentagon where once you drop down from the joint chiefs, i mean, there are professional people, military people who are anxious to have the story told about what's going on in materials of policies being obstructed, altered or changed? is it possible to level the anxiety of fear within the white house staff that this is all going to pop out eventually? >> yeah, look, i think this is, in fact, the culmination of basically two and a half years of war fair between a president and the government he presides ov. reobviously was at war with the intelligence agencies which he compared to nazi germany. he's adopted this talk from what was once the political fringe of

a deep state that was out to get him. he saw just the other week, just last week he referred to the top layers of the fbi as absolute scum. you know, he has been at war in effect with, you know, his own government for so long that now in effect the -- we're seeing the climax of that. the government is biting back. now it's time to tell the stories we weren't able to tell before. congress is investigating their subpoenas, and the consequences of this war that he had with the government is bearing fruit. if you ignore the career professionals around you, you know, you're going to -- there could be a price to pay. for one thing they bring a lot of wisdom to the table, a lot of experience to the table. most of them want to serve the government that they have, republican or democrat and have over the years, but you know, there is a feeling among a lot of people around president trump that at least some of them can't be trusted, that some of them are bringing their own personal agenda and that they are not on president trump's side and therefore ought to be kept at

arm's length. the consequence of that is now visible for all to see. >> peter baker thank you so much. joining us now, democratic presidential candidate mayor pete buttigieg of south bend, indiana. mayor pete, great to have you back on the show. you had a great night last night. what did you see as the challenges you were confronting on the debate stage with the dynamic at play last night? >> all right well, anytime you have 12 people up there, it's a challenge to make sure that your message gets through. but i really valued the opportunity to lay out the picture of what this country's going to need after the trump presidency. after all, we're all competing to be the president who can pick up the pieces starting on that first day, and that means having bold solutions to the problems that have been with us for a long time and are not taking a vacation for impeachment. and at the same time, i think very important to do it in a way that can actually unify the american people. we've got a strong new american majority for major reform on

issue after issue. now is our chance to actually make it happen. >> should americans be concerned that elizabeth warren will not tell them middle class americans whether they're going to be taxed or not under her medicare for all plan? >> i certainly think there ought to be a straightforward answer on that. the biggest issue for me is that there's another and better way. when i talk about medicare for all who want it, i'm talking about what most americans -- >> can i stop you right there, excuse me, let me just ask you, did you get an answer to your question last night on whether elizabeth warren was going to tax middle class americans if her medicare for all plan passed? >> no, and we all know the answer is yes, but she wouldn't say it. i think that's one of the things that really has folks frustrated with washington speak. we should lay out our plans, explain what they are, explain what they're going to cost and go out there and defend them. that's what i'm seeking to do with this idea of medicare for

all who want it. the chance to get on a medicare plan if you want and keep your private plan if you want, and clear how to pay for it. >> you talk a lot about the midwest for good reason, you know the midwest as well as anybody in the rest other than perhaps amy klobuchar who knows a little as well. you've been very concerned about talks of confiscating guns, taxing churches, taking away the private health insurance of 165 americans. very concerned how that's going to play in the midwest. do you fear that too many up on that stage have gone so far left that they're cedei ing the midwt to donald trump? >> i think we could lose sight of our own goals, what i'm propzing to do on health care is the biggest thing to happen to health care. what we are close to being able

t t to do, what we finally have a good strong majority of americans to do on guns, assault weapons ban, and red flag laws, same thing on immigration, on issue after issue, there's an opportunity to do big things. we've got to make sure we don't in our haste to one up each other on a debate stage go further and further out to where we do lose people. and again, this isn't just a question of winning. this is a question of governing because the next president that first day picking up the pieces after the trump era is going to have to figure out a way to deliver the bold answers wi we and unify the american people. the amazing thing is we can. sometimes i think democrats have this tendency to be in this defensive crouch and assume people aren't with us on the issues we hold dear. people are with us at least if we keep our focus on the main things we can achieve. there is a strong american majority to get these things done. we need to engage and build that american majority. >> speaking of the midwest, we

have an em bitered cardinal fan claire mccaskill who has a question for you. >> mayor pete as somebody who lives in a state very similar to yours, i'd like you to talk about rural missouri and indiana, rural america and your campaign. you have really talked about pragmatism and people want to call you, oh, he's a centrist, but really, it's more you're a pragmatist. talk about that in context of how you think we can chip away at the dominance the republican party has had in your state and mine in rural parts of our country. >> you know, i think there's a huge opportunity right now because not just politically but just in terms of culture and values. you know, what the trump administration represents really goes against a lot of values that are important in rural america, too, from just basic ideas around kindness and how we treat each other to a set of policies that is happening, for example, on the backs of

farmers. when you look at the trade war. so when i'm traveling through rural areas and even around home in indiana, what i notice is that there are a lot of people saying things that tell me they could come our way, even if they're not thinking about it politically. you've got farmers saying how much longer are we supposed to take one for the team. you've got folks asking about the crisis of rural health care. the fact that we have hospital closures and provider shortages. we're talking about things like mental health that are important everywhere, but certainly a major concern along with addiction and opioid issues in rural communities. it's why i've really focused on building up rural economies, making sure we deal with health care and education for rural areas, not to mention getting them all connected online. i do think there is a huge opportunity right now. we just got to make sure that folks understand that we want them in this coalition. i think part of the problem has been what a lot of rural voters think that democrats think of them, and we've got to make

clear without condescension and certainly without appearing that we're going to war with folks cultu culturel cultu culturally. >> i wanted to ask you, we've seen you have impressive numbers in iowa and new hampshire. you're getting a nice bump this those states. when it comes to south carolina, you're still struggling with the african-american vote, and it's important, right, that vote. you cannot win the primary and the general election without the african-american vote. what have you been doing, what's the strategy there? how are you going to diversify your base and really bring in that community? >> so i think in terms of chasing the poll number and more in terms of making sure i deserve to win and when it comes to an agenda for black america, our focus is on the douglass

plan named after frederick dougla dougla douglass. this time investing it right here at home and investing it in dismantling systemic racism. we've learned the hard way when you take a racist policy and you replace it with a neutral one, it's not enough to deliver equality, and so we've put forward, i believe the most comprehensive vision that will tackle not just issues like criminal justice reform, which has profound racial inequities, but also on the opportunities side, empowering black entrepreneurs, making sure the government is doing a much better job of doing business with businesses owned by people who have been systematically shut out as well as addressing things like home ownership, education, access to the vote. what i find is that when i speak about these things, they are resonating strongly with black audiences, but i've got a lot of work to do to go out there and sell it. i do not think that the vps advantage among black voters in south carolina is permanent, but those of us who are competing for it really need to go out there and earn it. >> mayor buttigieg, it's willie geist. it's good to see you this

morning. the disaster of turkey and syria continues this morning. just now president erdogan of turkey announced he will not meet with vice president pence or secretary of state pompeo when they travel to turkey. the white house said the vice president had a meeting to confront erdogan about his actions in syria. erdogan said i will only talk to president trump. that meeting is not happening. what will you do at the beginning of presidency to restore american credibility with our allies for example. >> we need to make sure that america is leading according to our values, whether that is core values around democracy or values like making sure we stand with our allies and that our allies can count on us. the message that president trump has sent by just pulling the rug out from kurdish allies who put their lives on the line basically bet their lives that it was a good bet to stand with america and help us defeat isis are now questioning whether they can ever trust america again.

it is going to be a difficult process to restore u.s. credibility, but i'm running to be the commander in chief who can do that by engaging our allies. the good news is there are some major global struggles going on where if and only if the u.s. takes a leadership role, we can, in fact, restore that key function of the united states, which is to move the world forward. climate is a good example. you know, we can't deal with it alone. the world can't deal with it without american leadership. whether it's on that issue or on hard security military concerns, we've got to establish ourselves as a country that can be trusted. >> all right, mayor pete buttigieg, thank you as always for being on the show this morning. >> andrea, let's talk about the breaking news that you were looking at a couple of minutes ago. how significant it is, and once again erdogan shows contempt for donald trump, shows contempt for the administration, shows contempt for the united states of america.

>> it's incredible erdogan now saying he's not going to meet a delegation that includes -- and this in itself is unusual -- the vice president of the united states, the national security adviser, and the secretary of state all traveling together to turkey basically to plead with erdogan to reverse what he is doing. >> let me ask you a leading question that i already know the answer to. >> the humiliation is unbelievable. >> have you ever heard of anything remotely like this happening before? >> no, and they still have not withdrawn the invitation that the president offered back when he two weeks ago talked to erdogan and invited him to washington. the last time he came to washington, you'll recall, 17 of his body guards were indicted. >> that's right. >> for beating on the heads in broad daylight of protesters. >> peaceful protesters. >> on embassy row and then took their diplomatic immunity and left the country without facing any justice. he's bringing those same bodyguar bodyguards, if that invitation

not withdrawn. how can erdogan now say only the day after, in fact, turkish troops, turkish backed militias who had been given all of our u.s. locations according to the chairman of the joint chiefs, those turkish troops came within four miles of attacking u.s. troops and syrian kurdish allies on the ground. we had to send apaches and f 15s to give air cover and warn them off, a brush back if you will. >> this is incredible. >> now we are going and pleading with him to back off? with the highest level delegation we've ever sent anywhere? >> yeah, and he won't even see them. again, it's such a sign of weakness by this president and this president's administration that he allows turkey to push us around this way. with all of your sources throughout the diplomatic community community, throughout washington, throughout the world, do you have any insights? have they given you any insights

as to why donald trump who the in the past has kowtowed, of course, to vladimir putin, kowtowed to kim jong-un, have they given you any insight in your reporting as to why donald trump now is being so weak and malleable to erdogan? >> people, it's inexplicable, are the saudis, the israelis, some of our closest allies who have themselves behaved, certainly the saudis, in inappropriate ways and the israeli leadership in disarray, how he could be siding with erdogan and going against even those allies to say nothing of the syrian kurds on the ground. the speculation, of course, among diplomatic officials, among people who are so distressed about this is that it could be business interests. we don't know that, but certainly the interest that the trump organization has in turkey is very large. but there's no credible

education p explanation for this, and how any of these democrats, if they were elected could restore american legitimacy overseas is another big question. >> it is also, this is about weakness. this is about foreign leaders not respecting, and i'll say it, not fearing consequences from the united states of america because they believe the president of the united states is just a weak, weak man. they see how he behaved in helsinki, they believe how he behaved with kim jong-un. they see that kim jong-un has played him. they see he can be played. that the chinese are playing him. he has no discipline to follow through on anything, and there are no consequences to their bad actions? we have three more presidential candidates, still ahead, senators kamala harris and amy klobuchar join us live. first senator cory booker is standing by. he joins us next on "morning joe."

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jobs guarantee or a thousand dollars a month. are those the best solutions there? please respond. >> first of all, i'm happy to get in finally, and i just want to say as a great new jerseyan yogi berra said i have having desha view. we have one shot to make donald trump a one-term president. how we talk about each other in this debate actually really matters. i've had the privilege of working with or being friends with everybody on this stage, and tearing each other down because we have a different plan to me is unacceptable. i have seen this script before. it didn't work in 2016, and it will be a disaster for us in 2020. >> senator cory booker calling out his fellow democratic candidates last night for once again attacking each other rather than donald trump. and the presidential candidate joins us now. corey, it's always good to see you. your first question -- >> it's really good to be on, thanks. >> -- comes from nbc's andrea

mitchell. >> we've been talking about the fact that president erdogan has said now he will not see vice president pence or mike pompeo who are supposed to fly out today and see him tomorrow. how does america restore its sense of power and authority around the world after the kind of humiliation at the hands of dictators that we are seeing ri right now? >> look, we have a lot of work to do. and i'm glad on the senator foreign relations committee there is a lot of bipartisan agreements right now on the disastrous decisions donald trump is making that's giving isis a strong foothold in that region that is turning its back on the kurds and giving really strength to everyone from russia to iran to assad regime, and allowing the turks and erdogan who's been slipping towards authoritarianism on a steady pace now for many, many months. this is really a bad situation, so in the senate foreign relations committee, i think you're going to see a lot of

condemnation, bipartisan full throated condemnation of what this president is doing, but we have a lot of work to do as americans to reassert the strength of free western democracy against what we're seeing from hungary to turkey to china, which is lurching further and further towards authoritarianism. >> yeah, so senator, i loved your moment last night. talked about it where you keep reminding your democratic candidates that are on stage with you that the battle is not an intermural battle. it is a battle for the future of america and their focus needs to be more on donald trump instead of these intermural squabbles. talk about that. >> you know this, donald trump got less votes than mitt romney. we could shellac this sitting president in the 2020 elections if we stay unified and can engage and excite democrats, and

frankly, independents and moderate republicans who all know that this is a president engaged in outrageous moral vandalism. and so for us to do things, distinguishing our differences is really valuable and important, but demeaning or degrading the character of someone on the stage, that to me is unacceptable, no matter what role i end up playing, and i hope and believe that i'll be the nominee, but no matter what role i'm playing, i'm going to be a unifying force to this party at a time that i believe you can't lead the democratic party unless you can actually bring about that spirit of unity because that's not just what the democratic party needs but our country needs healing and someone that can bring us as a whole together. >> senator booker, it's willie geist, good to see you as always. i want to ask you about health care because that was one of those distinctions you're talking about that was drawn on stage. you have medicare for all plans from senators warren and sanders, and you had specifically mayor buttigieg

drawing a line last night and saying, well, there's going to be somebody that pays for this, and it's going to be the middle class and couldn't get senator warren to answer the yes, no question on that. want to get your clear view for our viewers and all the people watching thinking about casting a vote where you stand on that question for medicare for all. is it a dangerous idea to take private insurance away from that many americans? >> look, i'm a former mayor. i've had to run things. i'm a fierce pragmatist, and the ideal is something i'll always fight for. we have an outrageously broken health care system. you want to talk about affording something? we can't afford what we have right now. it's vastly approaching 20% of our entire economy. we pay more than any other country on the planet earth and get worse results than every industrial nation. so we should talk about what the ideal is, and i actually do believe the ideal we should be moving towards as a society is more towards a single payer system. but you know what? we've got to talk about how we

can make steps towards that ideal, and whoever the next president is i don't care what you're saying in this presidential primary, there are going to be steps that we have to take to earn america's trust to do the kind of big things, from everything from lowering prescription drug costs to lowering medicare eligibility to 55, there are going to be pragmatic steps we have to take to getting towards our goal of driving down costs and expanding coverage to the point where in america we have every body covered. >> do you worry about a democratic message when it comes from elizabeth warren or comes from bernie sanders of voters hearing there's a shot, although it may be unlikely to pass through the senate as you know, there's a shot that the private insurance i enjoy could be taken from me. is that a dangerous idea for democrats to be putting out? >> look, i don't think putting out a larger vision for this country is ever dangerous, as long as it's something that you can back up with pragmatic steps to get there, and no, we are not going to flip a switch and take

away private insurance in this country. it is just not going to happen that way. i think providing steps towards our goal to bring america along with us like providing a vibrant, viable vibrant, viable option is something reasonable. bernie sanders, and just about every democrat in the democratic caucus in the senate have been on public-option bills. i'm not going to one of the people to ever pull away from a dream. i'm sitting here because of the visions put forth by this country, but as a guy who's had to run stuff, make stuff work, this will be a process that is critical, that we can bring new american coalitions together to actually get real legislation passed to do what this nation urgently needs, to get away from the disastrous policies, that incentivize people to not see

doctors, to to use emergency rooms as primary cares, to do disastrous things like -- every other competitor we have is doing prenatal care. we have literally lead industrial nations in maternal it mortality, complications at birth, as opposed to the right kind of health care that incentivizes the right behavior, and actually can dramatically drive down costs. good morning, cory. it's claire. >> hey, claire, how are you? >> i'm well, i'm well. i want you to know i think women noticed last night you said something that was really important when it came to reproductive health freedoms for women in this country. that is, good on kamala for voicing this in the strongest possible terms, but good on you

saying it shouldn't just be the women talking about this issue. talk about the erosion of this right, and how you see your campaign as trying to stop that erosion that's so palpable in states like ohio, in my state where they passed a law there won't even be a rape or incest exception in missouri, if the missouri legislature has its way. >> it's despicable, frankly. look, i go all over this country. i need just good folks who have very different views than i do about seeing roe v. wade being the law of the land, but the best states with records of driving down unwanted pregnancies, they've accomplished this not be taking away access to reproductive care, but actually giving women more rights, giving them free

contraceptions. so we are seeing this most disastrous policy -- whatever you say your outcome you want to be, this is an attack on women. this is an attack on your ability to control your body, an attack on common sense, and it's going to drive the very awful realities that we all in a unified way don't want to see. when you have a state like alabama literally saying a doctor who is performing an abortion on a young teenage girl, who is a survivor of rape and incest, that that doctor is going to face criminal charges far worse than the perpetrator of that crime? we have gone so far in the wrong direction. so i'm one of these guys that is just tired. we had a rally in front of the supreme court when that alabama bill moved forward. i was stunned to be 5 to 1 or worse, women to men out there rallying. this cannot be something that's

left to women. guys saying, well, i'm for this, because i have a sister or a daughter or a wife, please, you have a body. you are a person and you should be in this fight, because people deserve to be able to control their own body. that's a freedom and sanctity that we need. as president of the united states, i'm going to be driving to make roe v. wade codified through legislation. i'm going to elevate an office of reproductive freedom in the white house. we have a lot of work to do, especially for low-income women to have common-sense access to reproductive care. as you know, from rural areas to inner city areas like mine, planned parenthood clinics are some of the only access that women have to cancer screenings and more care. >> senator booker, thanks so

much as always. andrea mitchell, before we let you go, what should we looking for in this turkey situation? as you said this is perhaps unprecedented. we have the secretary of state and the vice president going abroad to turkey for a planned immediate with president erdogan, erdogan saying moments ago, i will not meet with the vice president of the united states, i will only speak with the president. what happens now? >> that's a standoff. we have nancy pelosi and others going to a bipartisan meeting with the top congressional leaders, but the fact is russia, vladimir putin is now in charge pretty much he and assad have regained powers, getting into areas they've never been able to be, and erdogan is saying he will meet with putin, but not meet with mike pence? extraordinary. i don't know how the u.s. gets out of this diplomatic mess.

>> the white house says there was a meeting set up, erdogan says there was not. we'll watch "andrea mitchell reports" at noon. coming up, elizabeth warren fending off attacks. and we'll speak to two more senators, kamala harris and amy klobuchar. and more telling the house they will not comply with subpoenas. we're coming right back with a packed hour. e coming right bah a packed hour. great riches will find you when liberty mutual

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the day richard nixon failed to answer that subpoena was the day he was subject to impeachment. he took the power away from congress and he became the judge and jury. >> 20 years ago you said that not complying with a subpoena.

>> yeah, i -- nothing's changed. we'll get to the latest in just a minute. vice president mike pence and rudy giuliani are among those refusing to hand over documents sought by congress, and the office of management and budget missed yesterday's deadline to turn over documents related to the delay of military aid to ukraine. but, first, senator elizabeth warren's surge in the polls earned her the focus of the other candidates. attacked 16 times according to our count, but it was mayor pete buttigieg who got it started when elizabeth warren refused to give a straight answer when asked if her medicare for all proposal would raise taxes on the middle class. >> a yes-or-no questions that didn't get an answer. this is why people in the midwest are so frustrated with argument in general and capitol hill in particular. your signature, senator, is to have a plan for everything,

except this. >> at least bernie is being honest here and saying how he's going to pay for this and taxless go up. i'm sorry, elizabeth, but you have not said that. i'm tired of hearing whenever i say these things, you are making republican talking points right now in this room by coming out for a plan that will do that. i appreciate elizabeth's work, but again the difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something that you can actually get done. >> saying this is a rules problem is ignoring the reality that americans see around us every single day. >> no one on this stage wants to protect billionaires, not even the billionaire wants to protect billionaire. we just have different approaches. your idea is not the only idea. >> sometimes i think that senator warren is more focused on being punitive or pitting some part of if she would join

some, and so senator warren, i want to say that i'm surprised to hear you did not great with me when i called on twitter to suspend donald trump's account. first of all, it was striking how much they went after elizabeth warren, but also she is creating talking points that republicans will use effectively in the midwest, especially and in places like florida, if they doesn't answer the question, how are you going to pay for a medicare for all plan that again -- middle-class americans. >> mayor buttigieg said it is a

yes/no question. she's putting it all on the wealth tax she's proposing and using billionaires as the boogieman, but the truth is it will raise costs. you know there's been a lot of talk about who is the front-runner? is it joe biden or elizabeth warren, the field question for that -- they focused almost all their fire on elizabeth warren and not joe biden. >> it was interesting to see, all of them agreed on one thing, elizabeth warren is the front-runner. they came for the queen, if you will. i think she did fine. she held her own, and stuck to her own message, but is it going to change anything? i don't think that second tier, those 2, 3-percenters, you have

pete buttigieg out there, he had a strong performance. i thought amy klobuchar had her best performance of all of the debates. kamala harris had strong moments as well. but i don't know if we are where we are with they debates and if they are going to move the needle for anyone right now. it seems like everything is frozen in its place at the moment. >> still too many people on the stage. >> i agree, way too many people. we see it every four years that iowa sort of waits until after christmas, then they start focusing. john kerry in 2004 surged to the front, barack obama surging. in the debate last night, the attacks against elizabeth warren, a few of them seemed to really land, and of course her not answering the question about not raising taxes, but i think more importantly the tone, the style of her approach.

amy basically saying we can disgreat without being bad democrats. we can disagree without being bad americans. >> warren has risen to this by saying i have the boldest approach. >> and if you disagree with me, you're feeding into republican talking points, which would be maddening to me if i was on the stage as a democrat. >> i do think there's genuine frustration from other democrats that they want to do it incrementally, not the way she's doing it. the question is do they engender more simp think. i thought amy klobuchar did a good job.

in the end he says -- there was a bit of a risk there. >> the thing that was great about elizabeth warren and sort of what i've noticed about her every step of the way before she even game a candidate is her story and all the work she's done backs up her message. when you ask her what's behind her message, what's behind her policy, she's go into a story as to something she built, misshe did that went against the tide. always has a clear message to back it up, reasons for it. here's the exchange you were talking about, sam. >> following the financial crash of 2008 i had an idea for a consumer agency to keep giant banks from cheating people. all of the washington insiders and strategic geniuses said don't even try, because you will never get it passed. sure enough the big banks fought us, the republicans fought us,

some of the democrats fought us, but wet got that agency into -- >> i agreed with you, and i got you votes. i got votes for that bill. i convinced people to vote for it, so let's get those things straight, too. >> senator warren, do you want to respond? >> i am deeply grateful to president obama who fought so hard to make sure that agency was pass booed law, and i am deeply grateful to every single person who fought for it and who helped pass it into law. but understand. >> did a hell of a job in your job. >> thank you. but understand this it was a dream big/fight hard. >> not a light touch. you know, mike, i read a quote last week that said academic

politics is so vicious, because the stakes are so small? [ laughter ] it seems that the battles that we see in these debates remind me of the smallness of academic politics. the smalls in -- the difference, the minutia between, did i help you get that passed? did you get that passed? you owe me this. i thank president obama and i don't thank you? come on, man. i will say it again, i give cory booker such high praise for actually being the only person cease you are all are attacking each other, you guys have fun. hey, donald trump, let me tell you what you're destroying the republic, while you're attacking the constitution, these people are talking about how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin while our constitutional norms are being

shredded and a president is ask you china to interfere with american democracy. something that his intel chiefs have said is the greatest threat to democracy. cory booker gets it. i'm sorry, most of the people on the stage don't. >> during the course of the debate we have a president of the united states who constantly, by the hour of each and every day, makes an effort to alter of constitution of the united states, alter the ethics and allers the way people view government and view him. corinne is absolutely right when she said there's no way of knowing who moves the needle on this thing. to your point that you just raised about elizabeth warren, look it, let's face facts, elizabeth warren is a star. she is a star on the debate stage. she's been a star during this campaign, but you have to wonder the emotional reaction of people watching that exchange in which, if you noted, she never once

looked at vice president biden after he said correctly that he helped garner votes for the consumer protection bureau on the floor of the senate, which he did. she never once looked at him, and then to use your phrase, joe, was there a smallness aspect to her that people will notice, that will register with people? when she not only looks at him, but clearly says deliberately i would like to thank, slight pause, president obama. not both of them, not obama and biden, not both of them. i would like to thank, slight pause, president obama. still ahead, we've got two more presidential candidates on deck, snoring kamala harris and amy klobuchar. join the conversation, we're back in a moment. conversation,e back in a moment

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the purpose of the presidency is not to glorify i'm asking for your vote to be that president, when the dust clears over the rubble of our norms and institutions, pick up the pieces and guide us toward a better future. mayor pete buttigieg, as you said at the top, had an excellent night. the one time he shines was during the debate over guns, when he took on beto o'rourke and o'rourke's proposal to confiscate semiautomatic rifles. >> if someone does not turn in one of these weapons of war, or brings it out in public and branditious it in an amendment to intimidate as we saw at kent state recently, that weapon will

be taken from them. the expectation is that americans will follow the law. i believe in this country, i believe in my fellow americans. i believe these will do the right thing. >> congressman you just made it clear you don't know how this -- if you can develop the plan further, but we can't wait. people are dying in the streets right now. >> listening to my fellow americans, to the moms who demand action, to the students who march for our plans, let's follow their inspiration and leads atened and not be limited and i don't need lessons from you recognizes that the problem is not other democrats who don't

we should be united in taking the fight to them. he sort of signaled this week he would play that -- we saw him take on elizabeth warren. mayor beet general had an early burst and faded a bit, but he has a ton of money, he's hanging around right at that second tier, and he punched through in many ways in many opportunities last night like he did there with beto o'rourke. >> i wouldn't be surprised to see mayor pete win iowa, elizabeth warren win new hampshire, and if joe biden is around, winning south carolina, and after those three states, we still have a -- obviously it can

go in 1,000 different directions, but mayor pete is doing what iowa winners in the past have done. 's getting in position for the late surge, and people in iowa really start focusing, you know, after christmas he's got the money like you said, he has a great ground game. he's in good shape, but you want to go back to what mayor pete said about beto's confiscation plans. it's a radical plan. i think the supreme court would consider it unconstitutional. nobody, and i mean nobody other than beto, wants doors kicked down. reverend al told me, he said, man, if there was a gun confiscation plan and people were kicking down doors, i wouldn't be able to make all my calls on civil rights, because i would have a lot of black americans calling me up, yelling saying i was being targeted. it is, though i do not doubt

beto's good intentions, it is a stew pend out ly bad idea, and the idea to tax churches if they preach the gospel and preach the bible about same-sex marriage. if they have the freedom to preach the way they want to preach, whether it's churches, synagogues or mosques, i mean, do we want to start taxes mosques or synagogues? the democrats seem unite odd this, except beto, but make no mistake, a configures indication of guns, taxing of churches, and taking away of private health insurance from americans will be repeated around the clock between now and next november by whomever is the nominee.

>> they'll say this is the party of confiscating your guns. because one person says, this is the party of taking away infrastructure private insurance. this is the company of punishing you for practicing your faith the way you see fit. coming up -- >> as a former prosecutor, i know a confession when i see it. he tried to cover it up putting it in the special server. there's a clear consciousness of guilt. this will not take long. she weighs in on impeachment, syria and the presidential race, next on "morning joe." presidential race, next on "morning joe." ♪ [phone ringing] how are we doing?

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but even by their own partisan standards, house democrats have found new ways to lower the bar. this is about the most consequential process the house of representatives could possibly engage in. overruling american voters, and nullifying an election. surely any such process must be conducted with the utmost fairness and transparency.

it must be held to the most exacting of standards. and yesterday house democrats have wasted no time throwing fairness and precedent to the wind. there's no requirement that we have a vote and so at this time we will not be having a vote. i'm very pleased with the thoughtfulness of our caucus in terms of being supportive of the path that we are on in terms of fairness, in terms of seeking the truth, in terms of upholding the constitution of the united states. that's house speaker nancy pelosi last night standing by her decision not to hold a full house vote right now despite the republican criticism you heard from leader mcconnell and others. meanwhile, now vice president mike pence and rudy giuliani joining the ranks of those refusing to hand over documents sought by congress in the impeachment inquiry. the vice president's counsel says the inquiry has not been authorized by the house.

rudy giuliani's lawyer says he will not cooperate because the inquiry seems unconstitutional, baseless and illegitimate. yesterday the office of management and budget missed the deadline, and nbc news has obtained a letter from the defense department, stating it too will not comply about the subpoena for documents, citing in part the lack of house authorization. this comes days after mark esper said they would do everything to cooperate. joining us now is senator harris. what is your next move here? if you have a white house that has explicitly said we are just not going to cooperate, we're not going to answer subpoenas,

what's your recourse? >> well, they should be held in contempt of congress. anyone who is refusing to comply with an official act of congress, meaning that congress is acting in its role as oversight, and also as a check and balance on the abuse of power by the executive branch i also have to say the hypocrisy is blinding. when you have mitch mcconnell, who was the leader during the years of obama, and they would haul into congress all of those who complied, who had to sit there during a politically motivated process. they still complied. now you have them basically saying the rules don't apply to them in the way they have tried to hold the democrats accountable. it's blatant hypocrisy and

obstruction of justice. let's be clear. what we are talking about, the subject matter includes the president committing a crime in plain sight. it is extraordinary what we have in terms of evidence. really it could not take long to figure it out. we basically have a confession, a cover-up and consciousness of guilt, but the obstruction of justice by this administration, by donald trump, by the attorney general, by giuliani, is blinding and really does highlight the need for this impeachment proceeding. this truly is a moment where justice is on a ballot in america. we have to fight for that. senator, with all of that in mind, would speaker pelosi be wise to hold the vote to make it an official inquiry, thereby calling a bluff, boo you it's not an official impeachment inquiry? >> i'm going to leave that to

the best thoughts of the speaker, who i think is brilliant in the way she conducts herself, and does it in a way that appreciates this is about the integrity of our system of justice and our democracy, and this must be conducted in a way that's not about political benefit, but is about what the in the best interest of our system, which has compromised by donald trump and his administration. claire mccaskill is here with a question. >> good morning, kamala. >> good morning. >> i throat you were on fire last night. would you do me a favor and walk everyone through what this impeachment process is? i think people are confused about the legal process here, that the house gathers information similar to a criminal investigation. >> right. >> then there is a proceeding as to whether or not the president will in effect be indicted on impeachment. >> right. >> then it comes over for a trial. talk about that and how

incredibly fair it is, because all the defense attorneys, which is every republican in the house of representatives is in the hearings. everything that is going on there, they are witnessing and they are asking questions. i think americans -- there's a lot of using about how this actually works. >> yeah. >> can you do the analogy to a criminal case and walk us through that? >> yeah, absolutely. you said it well, claire. this is right now -- the process is a fact-gathering process. it is about presenting evidence. it's about challenging witnesses. in many situations it would they cross-examining witnesses to test their credibility, their ability to actually perceive that which they testify about. their bias, all these things will be on trial, as you said, to determine what are the actual facts in the case. after the house of representatives, in a bipartisan process, makes those

determinations, if they decide there's there will be basically a trial to determine guilt. i couldn't you more, i hate to just use broad terms to talk about a group of people, but in this case i will. the republicans in the house have -- they're feigning helplessness, when over years they have frankly obstructed justice as we're seeing now, with the unwillingness, in fact the refusal to comply with official acts of congress. so i think that the american people should recognize that if everyone agrees there should be a fair process, the witnesses must come forward so that process can actually take place, and then there will be an ability also for the american people to witness this trial and

form their own opinions. >> let's talk about some of the people who help donald trump get elected to the presidency. most of them, many of them i bet were not watching the debate. a lot of people with twitter accounts were watching the debate last night, but the people who helped elect them, if you go to your home state, bakersfield, fresno, what do you propose if you're president of the united states to people who believe they have not gotten a fair shake? that they have been ignored by the, quote, elites? and worse, that they believe their children will be ignored. what do you tell people like that to get them back into the process and vote for democrats? >> it's hard of why i'm running, mike. i do believe we have to unify our country, and have to -- i

mean, booic to claire's point, i started my career as a prosecutor. i said kamala harris for the people when i stood in a courtroom. it was not people of a certain race or gender or ethnic background or party affiliation. it doesn't matter the language that your grandmother spoke. it was about all the people and representing a voice that was about justice and understanding the commonalties between us. not only are the american people exhausted by what we have seen under donald trump, but there has truly been division because of his manipulation of issues. when you look at issues like health care, the need for people to have a job and one job that is enough to put foot on the table and have a roof over their head. when you look at people to know when their kids go to college they won't be burdened with

student debt, when you he pay women for equal work, we need leadership in this country and the next president who has an ability to see the commonalties between us and use her microphone in a way that is about speaking to that and speaking to who we really are in terms of our collective hopes and dreams and frankly restoring the integrity of the ideals of our country. i always get the same texts and e-mails when you're on the show, and people will say, i really like her. she's smart, he represents a huge states. . she was a prosecutor, she has a lot going for her. how do you explain where you are in the polling, and how do you get into the top tier? >> you know, willie, i think the challenge is we're still introducing myself.

there's a lot of candidates on the stage who have been on the scene for decades. they're well known. i think it speaks volumes to the fact that people haven't made up their minds. as you heard, i'm virtually moving iowa. after this interview, i'm heading -- i was serious about that. i'm going to debuick later today. i'm doing a town hall there later this evening. i am fully prepared to do what is necessary to earn -- i'm prepared to meet that challenge. i fully intend to win. i know we're challenges certain people's notions of who can do what, based on what we have seen traditionally, and we're asking people to have a vision of what can be by unburdened what has been.

nor kamala harris of california, thank you, senator. >> thanks, guys. coming up next, senator bernie sanders picking up big endorsements. what that may mean for his campaign, next on "morning joe." s campaign, next on "morning joe." (beep)

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last month former president jimmy carter said he could not have undertaken the duties of the presidency at 80. why are you so sure you can? >> because i've watched it, i know the job, i've been engaged. one of the ron i'm running is

because of my age and my experience. with it comes wisdom. we need someone to take office this time around who on day one can stand on the world stage, command respect from of world leaders, and know exactly what has to be done to get this country back on track. 40% of primary voters says a candidate under the age of 70 is more likely to defeat donald trump. what do you say to them? >> i will out-work, out-organize and outlast anyone, including no matter who the republicans get stuck with. joe biden and elizabeth warren last night talking about their age. guy cecil and democratic strategist and cochairman of the public affairs firm mercury.

thank you for joining us. jest gent impressions from last night. was there anything that changed the dynamic? >> i think for folks like elizabeth warren, their job was to sustain attacks. i thought she did a reasonably good job, but she's going to continue to get questions about meds care for all and i think she'll need to develop a better answer. if you're someone like amy klobuchar or cory booker, you're looking for a chance, and they did it in different ways. i think cory probably gave the best closing argument of any of the candidates running. i'm not sure that it fundamentally changed the debate. they rarely do, but i think the most important thing we can do is shrink the number of candidates on the stage. >> and senator klobuchar is sitting down. she'll join us momentarily.

what did you see from this field last night? >> just based on the three hours, we do have this tiering of candidates. over time we will have that shrinking of the field. i think what's really important right now, and certainly as i speak to latino voters, people want to see that next president, and that's really what's at stake here, more than the politics of any one policy over another, really. >> guy, the point you just raised, all the candidates on the field, a dozen last night, based upon your experience which is vast, we'll give you that, okay? what do these debates mean? do they have any meaningful lasting impact on your average voter? >> well, i think they have an impact if you have a candidate that's just struggling to get into the top tier. i think we've seen a couple moments where candidates just looking to survive and advance need to do something dynamic to

change the race. i think it matters if you make a critical mistake, but i don't think we saw those last night. what the field did last night was essential cement three tiers of candidates. my hope is that the third tier would wake up and decide it's more important to shrink the debate stage that's than another five minutes of fame on cable news. guy, it is interesting to watch this hunter biden situation develop. you are bearing the scars of many months inside the clinton campaign, where the e-mail controversy had similarities to it. and so speak to whether or not you think joe biden is -- is handling this the right way. what would your advice to him be in terms of, um, potentially getting off defense and getting on offense. >> well, first of all, let me say -- because i know you

wouldn't respect me otherwise, go nats. >> yeah, yeah, yeah, how did that lsu game turn out, by the way, gator? >> i know, i know, it's tough. the most important thing is to get all the facts out. i think the biden campaign has done a reasonably good job of that. we have consistently seen there's been nothing found here, that in fact after all the facts have been reviewed, there's no there there. i thought the interview that hunter biden did was important. i thought the timelyness worked out in favor of the biden campaign. it got facts out. the most important thing that the biden campaign can do is just take the fight to donald trump. it is a joke that donald trump jr., senator paul, liz cheney, these people are talking about how hunter biden has made money for himself off his father's name. i think it's ridiculous.

biden should take the fight to trump, get the facts out and move on. we got congress that alexandria ocasio cortez plans to endorse bernie sanders, congresswoman omar endorsed him last night. what does that tell you? >> certainly i think he's in a weak position. i think he has to answer how his health is not an impediment. but i think aoc on the margins does help among young latinos in particular and progressives across the country. i would go back to what weren't discussing moments ago in terms of biden. i think beyond whatever merits the attacks have, which is apparently zero, he's just not

strong. the former vice president is just not strong in defending himself. i think most people are looking for that champion, that person that will take it to donald trump and win next november. i'm not sure that he is that person right now. the polls surge seem to show that people are looking at our candidates. >> he's still at the top but has company. there. joining us as promised, senator amy klobuchar of minnesota. senator, good morning. it's good to see you. >> thank glue i want to go to your criticism of the health care plan. you called it a pipe dream. what did you mean by that? >> well, all well intentioned. i think we all agree we want to bring down the cost of health care to people. premiums, make it easier to buy prescription drugs. my issue is is they are at plan

to kick 149 million americans off their current insurance in four years. that's why i was the only senator on that stage that had not signed on. i read it. i think claire mccaskill has read it. that was my decision. i believe the best way to do is it is how barack obama wanted to do it from the beginning. we should build on obama care, which a he public option, as well as really taking on the pharmaceutical companies, something that's not been done. they are literally profiting off of people, not enough competition. i've been leading that effort with the medicare negotiation for years. i am ready to go and get this done. >> senator, as part of the pipe dream, is it a pipe dream to believe that if elizabeth warren is electioned president of the united states, or bernie sanders is elected president, that medicare for all will pass through the senate?

is that a pipe dream? >> i think that would be very difficult because of what i just described, and what i think you need, you have to have the ability to pass it. i've passed over i'm the lead democrat, and you also have to have deadlines and ways to get the people with you. and one of the big arguments i was making last night in this state that sherrod brown won so handily that then we lost by so much, only two years before with donald trump, is that you have to have a candidate that can bring the midwest with you. and that's why i talked about building a blue wall around michigan and wisconsin and iowa, minnesota, and ohio, and yes, even pennsylvania, so that we can win. and you do that with someone maybe not a celebrity candidate, but someone that actually fits, and that is me. i have won those red districts. i have won in the suburban areas like we're in right now in ohio, and i have brought people with

me. democrats, fired-up base, the highest voter turnout in minnesota last time, as well as independents and moderate republicans. that's how you also win back the u.s. senate and get all this stuff done. >> who are the celebrity candidates, senator? >> well, all my famous opponents, you know? i've got to get my name up there. >> listen, i think you're a celebrity, amy. in my book, you're a celebrity. >> thank you. >> senator, let -- >> you guys should have heard me. i was giving grief to claire last night about the cardinals after the twins had had the same fate. it was very sad. >> yeah, oh, yeah. i won't go there again. i had to do a little smackdown last night, but it's early morning. i'll be nicer. >> yeah, we'll have a moment of silence for both the yankees and the redbirds, both gone for the year. let's stick with talking about the midwest. part of the media package this year, the coverage of the campaign, and it was the same a

few years ago, was reporters go off into the midwest like anthropologists, like it's a lab experiment, minneapolis, indiana, you know, strange, foreign country, not the east coast or the west coast. so, take us to the people you know and tell us the two or three things, their hopes and their fears, and how you approach them and talk to them to get them to come back to the democratic party. >> well, as claire knows, the first thing is you've got to go to them. now, you can't just sit in your office in washington, d.c. you have to go not just where it's comfortable but where it's uncomfortable. i've done that. and by the way, that was one of the things donald trump did in 2016, and we cannot let our party not be the one that's out there and having their backs. that's the first thing. the second thing is that we've got to look at the issues they care about, not lecture to them about what they want, but listen to what they need. and to me, that means everything but ending this trade war, by

making sure that our farmers aren't just given handouts but can actually farm the land and produce the soybeans and feed the world. it also means manufacturing drops, and not just doing a bumper sticker solution with free college for all but actually looking at what our economy needs. fastest growing areas, one and two-year jobs. the people know that out there in the midwest. they know that some of these jobs are changing, and they want to make sure that their kids are getting trained on the jobs that we're going to have now and in the future. so that's another thing. health care, bringing down those costs of pharmaceuticals. i think that what they want is what helps them to succeed and helps their families. and a lot of what we talk about on the stage sometimes doesn't reach them in that way. >> so, amy, i have been guilty of saying over and over again that i think 12 on the stage is too many. i feel very strongly that we need to shrink the field to clarify and define the issues

that i think will bring us the white house. you are in a situation where you making the next debate is not a done deal at this point. talk about that conflict. and what is your strategy for going forward, making that next debate, or the strategy if you don't make the next debate in terms of staying in this race so you have a chance to compete in iowa and beyond. >> well, i'm starting today, we are going to visit every single county in new hampshire in a day and a half. after three hours sleep, what can go wrong? and then the next day after that, we're headed to iowa for a lengthy bus tour. and i want to bring it to the people. that is what i have always done and that is how i have won every single time i've run a big race, i've been outmatched with money, but not outmatched with votes. and so, that's the first thing i'll do. i think the second is to just continue to bring my message

that we can win with bold ideas and there's not just one set of bold ideas. there are others out there, and i just think they have not been given enough bandwidth, not enough discussion on tv, and people out there that i've talked to kind of say, you know, that sounds better to me, that fits where i am. i took some survey, and i didn't know you, but you match my views. so, i have to reach out to those people and make my case. >> all right. senator amy cloeb haklobuchar o minnesota, thanks for your time. we appreciate it. >> great to be on. thanks a lot. >> okay, and we've got whiplash this morning over whether or not vice president pence will meet with president erdogan. president erdogan had just said, no, he will not. well, now another development in that story when we come right back. t in that story when we come right back i wanna keep doing what i love,

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live pictures of smoke rising over northern syria as the turkish incursion into that

country authorized by president trump continues this morning, and we've got a development in a story we reported to you about an hour ago, where president erdogan of turkey had told the press he would not meet with or accept a delegation led by vice president pence. that's coming to ankara, turkey. well, now, clearly, claire, president erdogan got a call from the white house. erdogan's communications director saying, yes, president erdogan does plan to meet the u.s. delegation and with vice president pence tomorrow. well, cleanup on aisle five, right? i think probably this was a very embarrassing admission by erdogan. when he was saying his true feelings, that he didn't think they were important enough to meet with. time will tell how this turns out, but it's not going to have a good ending for the thing that's most important, and that is making sure we control isis and the threat that they are to our nation. >> as you look at those pictures, you can't help but think about what's happened over the past ten days or two weeks.

it all started with a phone call between president trump and president erdogan. >> you can't also help but think about an issue that was not discussed in detail, if it was discussed at all last night during the democratic debate, is the phrase endless war. it refers to iraq and afghanistan. there's going to be an endless war or a longtime war in our battle against isis, against al qaeda, throughout the world, in somalia, in south asia, and that was not dreaddressed. and we're going to have to talk about it because there are going to be people, five, six, ten years from now going to have to fight that war and they're not going to come from greenwich, connecticut, or silicon valley. they're going to come from places like missouri, like odessa, texas, and places that you and amy klobuchar were just referencing, and it's got to be addressed. >> that is the fear that americans will have to go back in. mike, thank you. claire, thank you as well. that does it for us this morning on "morning joe." we'll see you right back here tomorrow morning. for now, stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage. hey, steph. >> hey, there.

thanks, willie. i am stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday, october 16th, and there is a lot going on. moments from now, the impeachment inquiry resumes. it is the third straight day a former trump official will testify on the hill, just hours after speaker nancy pelosi says there will not be a full house vote just yet. all of this is happening as the secretary of defense, rudy giuliani, and vice president mike pence all reject congressional demands. and speaking of the vice president, pence was scheduled to lead a delegation to turkey to discuss a cease-fire in syria, but conflicting reports this morning on whether turkish president erdogan will even meet with him. and the race to defeat president trump taking a turn in ohio last night. 12 candidates on one stage and a whole lot of fireworks, most of them aimed at one person, the new perceived front-runner, senator elizabeth warren. >> your signature, senator, is to have a plan for everything, except this. >> you are making rep